https://steamhost.cc/steamcommunity_com/groups/Muslimin/discussions/1/594031952382990158/#c789940620673257303

https://steamhost.cc/steamcommunity_com/groups/Muslimin/discussions/1/594031952382990158/#c789940620673257883

https://steamhost.cc/steamcommunity_com/groups/Muslimin/discussions/1/594031952382990158/?ctp=2#c789940620673257949

https://steamhost.cc/steamcommunity_com/groups/Muslimin/discussions/1/594031952382990158/?ctp=2#c789940620673258086

https://steamhost.cc/steamcommunity_com/groups/Muslimin/discussions/1/594031952382990158/?ctp=2#c595161733884262628

If your house is made of glass, don’t throw rocks at other people’s houses.

And I left this to the verrrrry end so you don’t claim Whataboutism

You mentioned something about religious leaders back then? How about recently?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases

Too modern for you? Lets look back at what your Bible commands then:

https://steamhost.cc/steamcommunity_com/groups/Muslimin/discussions/1/594031952382990158/#c789940620673233734

https://steamhost.cc/steamcommunity_com/groups/Muslimin/discussions/1/594031952382990158/#c789940620673257193

https://steamhost.cc/steamcommunity_com/groups/Muslimin/discussions/1/594031952382990158/#c789940620673257239

3, 4, 7, 11, 12 and 15
"They said he was a good guy! Pedophiles are this strawman that he can't be, never mind the definition!" Strawman fallacy... Appeal to character fallacy...”

Yet your claim that he was pedo has already crumbled and you consistently failed to provide any evidence proving why early marriage is categorically or consequentially wrong especially in early times while I brought so many evidence to the contrary.

“Number 6 and 8: Irrelevant red herrings..”

6 you claim that she was a victim yet everything else shows otherwise, a red herring distracts from the main argument not bring evidence against your non existent evidence of abuse or trauma.

8 a red herring distracts from the main argument with irrelevant topics, not bring evidence that your main argument against the prophet (pbuh) is false due to the fact that he didn’t even think about her if it wasn’t because of another WOMAN’s suggestion (which is extremely telling to say the least)

5, 9, 10, 13 and 16:

"It was normal back then" I do believe if you are the leader of a religion your actions should be good and moral throughout time and place. Appeal to tradition fallacy...”

You are still implying that there was something wrong with that marriage yet you have consistently failed to prove ZERO proof, so I will not even address your comment until you address that. What is your proof that early marriage is categorically or consequentially wrong?

“Number 2: impulse control and intellectual maturity don't happen until at least late teens. Scientifically proven”

Impulse control shows that he clearly understood the difference between a child “pedo-” and adult and that’s why he waited. Also there is nothing scientific about the age of consent, this is established by society.

https://steamhost.cc/steamcommunity_com/groups/Muslimin/discussions/1/594031952382990158/?ctp=2#c595161733884255607

“Number 1 and 14: Whataboutism...”

1. Whataboutism is when I make zero effort to explain why an event occurred and just point to other events, not when I make 10+ direct explanations to why an event occurred.

14. has nothing to do with whataboutism, idk what you’re smoking, it shows that this was customary in that era

“A 9 year old's brain in the 7th century is the same as a 9 year old's brain in the 21st"

Frist, Maturity does not come with age, it comes with experience

https://steamhost.cc/steamcommunity_com/groups/Muslimin/discussions/1/594031952382990158/?ctp=2#c595162650440117089

Second, Marriage in Islam is not based on age, it’s based on maturity, if a 9 year old is mature enough to understand what is marriage, and what her responsibilities are, and can handle sexual relations without harm then she is fit for marriage, on the other hand if a 30 year old does not have those qualifications, then she is not fit for marriage.

“Stating a scientific fact”

There is nothing scientific about the age of consent, this is established by society.

https://steamhost.cc/steamcommunity_com/groups/Muslimin/discussions/1/594031952382990158/?ctp=2#c595161733884255607

“You are contradicting yourself. You say it's not age based but you're saying that one biological event, puberty instantly makes someone a mature adult”

Your comment makes no sense, you’re supposed to say: “you are contradicting yourself because you said no to age yet you refer to age”, I didn’t refer to any age. Also just to clarify, in Islam as soon as you hit puberty you become an adult, just like In Jewish law a girl is considered an adult at the age of 12 (bat mitzvah)

@Candorous, So I made a mistake! Using modern dictionaries and encyclopedias is considered weak methodology because they reflect contemporary legal, medical, and social definitions shaped by recent history, not the norms of 7th-century Arabia; using them retroactively imposes today’s concepts of adolescence, adulthood, age of consent, psychology, schooling, and life expectancy onto a society that organized maturity by puberty, physical capability, social responsibility, and custom, which is how age was understood at the time of the Prophet ﷺ, making modern reference works historically anachronistic and unreliable as evidence for evaluating actions that occurred in a completely different moral, biological, and civilizational framework. So I will not be addressing anything related to your comments about modern definitions and I also will refrain from using them.

fr go Israel

Go Israel !!!

Currently reading a 52 page book on the topic which will take me several weeks because I have a life. Although I'm confident that I can answer you now, I would rather not, because more knowledge is always better and helps in covering any potential gaps.

While I work on my reply, may I ask what's your Christian denomination and whether you're for or against the LGBTQ movement?

I know you LOVE your fallacies so here
Number 1 and 14:
Whataboutism...

Number 2:
We already went over this, impulse control and intellectual maturity don't happen until atleast late teens. Scientifically proven

5, 9, 10, 13 and 16:
"It was normal back then" I do believe if you are the leader of a religion your actions should be good and moral throughout time and place. Appeal to tradition fallacy...

Number 6 and 8:
Irrelevant red herrings...

3, 4, 7, 11, 12 and 15
"They said he was a good guy! Pedophiles are this strawman that he can't be, never mind the definition!" Strawman fallacy... Appeal to character fallacy...

This ♥♥♥♥ takes too long to type out and read and is honestly a bad ROTI, I do believe my replies are pretty sound and concrete
This is your main arguments so I'm gonna try and not reply with walls of text again

I love this, thank you for finally engaging in mature, evidence based argument, I truly appreciate it and will reply back to you.

"Still waiting on your reply for this, and not just one or two things, I need all.
https://steamhost.cc/steamcommunity_com/groups/Muslimin/discussions/1/789940620673343576/"
Okay give me a bit

American Academy of Pediatrics: "Adolescence is the period of transition between childhood and adulthood... This period of development... begins with puberty..."
"the continuing maturation of the parts of the brain that regulate impulse control, adolescents may have a propensity to be involved with high-risk behaviors"
"Adolescence, defined as 11 through 21 years of age, is a critical period of development in a young person's life, one filled with distinctive and pivotal biological, cognitive, emotional, and social changes."

Guttmacher Institute: "The vast majority of 15–19-year-olds worldwide... are still in the process of cognitive and psychosocial development, which affects their decision making."

Cambridge: Adult: "a person or animal that has grown to full size and strength"

Encyclopaedia Britannica: Adolescence: "the period of life when a child develops into an adult : the period from puberty to maturity..."

World Health Organisation: Adolescent: "the phase of life between childhood and adulthood, from ages 10 to 19."

Johns Hopkins Medicine: "Adolescence is a time of major changes... These changes include physical changes (puberty)... The stage of adolescence is from ages 12 to 18."

"Nope. when I type puberty in Britanica This is what comes up 'puberty, in human physiology, the stage or period of life when a child transforms into an adult normally capable of procreation.'"

Equivocation fallacy btw.
You proved my point, "capable of procreation" your puberty definition, is not the same as "full physical and intellectual maturity" an adulthood definition. You are equivocating. A 9 year old is not an adult

"Also, maturity is not chronological 'age based', hence, presentism."
You are contradicting yourself. You say it's not age based but you're saying that one biological event, puberty instantly makes someone a mature adult. My quote, from britannica, explicitly links adulthood to age 20 or 21 years, based on full intellectual maturity. You are just cherrypicking

"Yep, 'commonly' in the 21st century, again Presentism."
Commonly is the standard definition from the sources you provided.
Stating a scientific fact and definition isn't presentism.
A 9 year old's brain in the 7th century is the same as a 9 year old's brain in the 21st.

""9 year olds aren't adults." I just brought you three definitions that they are, Cambridge, Cleveland Clinic and Britanica, so you lost this point."
You brought zero definitions that say that. This is a complete fabrication. Show me the quote. You can't. Not one of your sources calls a 9 year old an "adult". They call them children who are starting puberty. You are confusing the start of a nearly 10 year process with the end result. Failllllllllll

Cleveland clinic:
"For girls, puberty typically ends around age 15 to 17 years. For boys, it tends to end around age 16 to 17 years. Again, every child is different, so these ages can vary."
"Puberty typically lasts two to five years. But every child is different. It can be difficult to not know how long puberty will take. But know that your child’s body is going through a natural phase of life."
"How can I help my child through puberty?"
Notice it says CHILD...

I really don't want to get sidetracked from my 12 points.

1/12 was about him (pbuh) waiting till she reached puberty (adulthood) to consummate marriage. Once a person has reached puberty, they are biologically no longer a child, and thus the relationship falls outside the clinical or moral definition of pedophilia.

So you already lost that point.

Notice how I'm replaying to 99.99% of your comments with evidence and mature logical argument, while you are cherry picking then adding LOL, FAIL, ESL to compensate for your deficiencies and hoping that personal insults and ad hominem will carry you through? Do you notice it? Do you? .....

Also dis u bro?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCvf71ZZRf4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9pBlICgXKs

Appeal to authority becomes a logical fallacy when the authority cited is not a qualified expert in the specific field, is biased, or when there is no expert consensus on the topic. The Encyclopaedia Britannica does not fit the description of a fallacious authority. It is considered a credible secondary source because its entries are written or reviewed by subject-matter experts and fact-checked by editors. I should type a last remark here to belittle you, but I will be more mature.

"grooming victim"


Still waiting on your reply to all of this, not just one or two, all.
"https://steamhost.cc/steamcommunity_com/groups/Muslimin/discussions/1/594031952382990158/#c789940620673230917"


" Then why do muslim advocate for replicating muhammed?"

https://steamhost.cc/steamcommunity_com/groups/Muslimin/discussions/1/594031952382990158/?ctp=2#c595161733884294307

"It is referring to the time in between child and adult"

Again presentism.
https://steamhost.cc/steamcommunity_com/groups/Muslimin/discussions/1/594031952382990158/#c789940620673231690

".....pedophilia LOL...."
Still waiting on your reply for this, and not just one or two things, I need all.
https://steamhost.cc/steamcommunity_com/groups/Muslimin/discussions/1/789940620673343576/

"9 year olds aren't adults."
- I just brought you three definitions that they are, Cambridge, Cleveland Clinic and Britanica, so you lost this point.
- Also, maturity is not chronological "age based", hence, presentism.

""adulthood, the period in the human lifespan in which full physical and intellectual maturity have been attained. Adulthood is commonly thought of as beginning at age 20 or 21 years."

Yep, "commonly" in the 21st century, again Presentism.

"Your quote is referring to adolescence"

-Nope, when I type puberty in Britanica This is what comes up "puberty, in human physiology, the stage or period of life when a child transforms into an adult normally capable of procreation."

-the term adolescence was discovered in 1904, again "presentism"

"stage in people's lives when they develop from a child into an adult."
It is referring to the time in between child and adult. ESL moment.

Comparing drinking alcohol to pedophilia LOL. Terrible faulty analogy.

9 year olds aren't adults.
Britannica Encyclopedia - "adulthood, the period in the human lifespan in which full physical and intellectual maturity have been attained. Adulthood is commonly thought of as beginning at age 20 or 21 years."
Your quote is referring to adolescence, the transition period and process between becoming a child and adult.
Appeal to authority with a grooming victim quote. Fail.

"You are doing presentism." Then why do muslim advocate for replicating muhammed?
If he is suppose to be the greatest prophet that you have to follow, shouldn't his actions be always correct no matter the time period, eternally good?
"And indeed, you are of a great moral character." - Surah Al-Qalam, 68:4.
You are acting like I'm talking about some random arab and not the second highest person below God.

Moreover, Cambridge Dictionary: "Puberty: the stage in people's lives when they develop from a child into an adult because of changes in their body that make them able to have children"

Not to mention the Cleveland Clinic's definition of puberty as well.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/body/puberty

Ok good. So you want to stick to the colloquial use of the term which conflate both attraction and behavior.

1. Attraction
- Let's say I am attracted to drinking Alcohol, but I waited till I reached the legal age for drinking in my country before I took my first sip. So what's the problem here?

2. Intimacy with a child
- She reached puberty (at 9 yrs old) BEFORE intimacy, so she was an adult, not a child.
- Britannica Encyclopedia “Puberty: is the stage at which a child transforms into an adult by nature capable for procreation”
- She herself said "When the girl reaches nine years of age, she is a woman." (Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Kitab al-Nikah)
- If you want to impose your current social standard on 7th century Arabia, then I implore you to visit this link before you make the error of Presentism https://steamhost.cc/steamcommunity_com/groups/Muslimin/discussions/1/594031952382990158/#c789940620673231690

The one everyone uses. Attracted to and/or engage in sexual acts with a child

To end the confusion. Specify what you want to use. Pedophilia or pedophilic disorder? And as a clinical or colloquial term?

Holy fail!

Pedophilic disorder (the definition you used for clinical diagnosis), and pedophilia aren't the same thing

You never used the colloquial term 💀

If you want to depart from the colloquial use of the word "pedophile" and stick to the actual official definition then you will lose massively, because

Pedophilia is a clinical term in psychiatry (DSM-5, ICD-11), defined as a persistent, recurrent sexual attraction to prepubescent children (typically under 13). A diagnosis requires fantasies, urges, or behaviors lasting at least 6 months, not a single incident, and must show a consistent pattern. Only licensed mental health professionals (psychiatrists, psychologists, or similar) can make this diagnosis using structured evaluation and evidence. It cannot be retroactively applied by laypeople, historians, or critics to figures from the past.

I don't think I need to explain more, so you are better off sticking to the colloquial defiinition that it means someone who consumates with children. Do you agree?

Your definition of pedophile isn't correct

"He may have ♥♥♥♥♥♥ that kid but atleast he waited a few years until marriage so he isn't a pedo!"

Pe·do·phile: a person who is sexually attracted to children.

Pedophiles can wait until marriage. That's literally how child marriage works

@Caiden, perfect! And I agree with you, a pedophile does not wait till marriage or puberty or any of that. A pedophile just snatches a kid and r*pes them.

Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) not only sought marriage, but waited till Aisha (RA) reached puberty while not knowing when that would happen. So he waited an indefinite amount of time (which ended up to be 3 years).

So that's 1/12 proofs (I added one recently so not 11) that nullify the pedophilia claim.

Any questions or concerns before we move to point 2/12 ?

Nothing prevents a pedophile from waiting until marriage LOL

Also I can't help but laugh at how you are pointing me to where to look in the Bible, don't you believe in the entire Bible? or you want me to only look at the updated 2.0 version? what a joke ! This is like me telling you to not look at page 73 of the Quran but page 71. And all of this for commentaries of people and only 20% is the word of God. While the Quran is 1 book, 1 version, must believe in all of it or you're not Muslim and 100% of it is the word of God. But anyways.

Just answer Question 1/ 11

Ok, lets stop attacking your religion (even though I have plenty more as you can see in my link) and let's disprove your claims about Muhammad (pbuh). And lets go through the painful process of discussing my defense one...............by ..............one, Since you obviously can't read.

And this time you can't run away.

I have 11 claims (excluding the Issac one which I wont use because like I said I don't want to attack your religion now.

and ofc you can read them all here, but you just skimmed them without commenting on any

https://steamhost.cc/steamcommunity_com/groups/Muslimin/discussions/1/789940620673343576/

So here we go

(Question 1/11)

- Would a pedophile wait indefinitely to have sex after marriage?

Is it a muslim thing that you have to be a child to be a virgin? That would explain a lot!

Can't even disprove muhammed was a pedo btw